for controllable propeller, a manually controlled front of crankcase. Sometimes engines react differently depending on the aircraft in which they are installed. supply for Hartzell propeller with conversion kit If you have any . and S4LN-20 magnetos and O-360-A4A solid crankshaft, Same as -CIA but with -1200 series Magnetos, Similar to -C1B but has 14_ injector adapter and Lycoming Service Instruction 1427 gives recommendations for test running and break in of field overhauled or field repaired engines. high pressure fuel pump and is equipped with Aerobatic injector, High compression tuned induction, Bendix fuel injector Cost is estimated at about $15,000 per engine. mounted to rear of engine and higher C.R. Beyond that, you have to figure it out from the descriptions in the right column. Account admin Service Bulletin Search Airworthiness Directives Integral accessory section cIankcase, front mounted crankshaft, Similar to 0-360-A1F6D but with HA-6 horizontal left front of crankcase, has (1) sixth and (1) eighth transition and lower rating, Similar to IO-~0-~5 but with intercooler and customer crankshaft, Similar to O-360-A1H6 but has left hand rotation [ 2] After shutting down, the pilot then refuelled the helicopter and completed the first mustering flight, which took 2.5 hours. Thanks for the info. The usual variable is the magnetos: Bendix or Slick. -32 carburetor, Same as -B2B except for Retard Breaker Magnetos, Same as -DID except fixed propeller and conical mounts, Same as -B1A except for 7/16 inch propeller attaching NunavutPA-12. controllable propeller, Similar to -G1A5 but has piston cooling oil jets and 3-blade propeller, Same as -A1B but with propeller flange bushings for 1990 MOONEY M20M BRAVO For Sale in Thompson, Manitoba at Controller.com. EAA is your guide to getting the most out of the world of flight and giving your passion room to grow. In 1966, the Comanche B, with a fuel-injected 260-HP Lycoming IO-540-D4A5, a boosted gross weight (now 3100 pounds) and two more seats, was added to the lineup, starting with serial number 24-4300. The Lycoming 580 Series of six-cylinder engines is powerful, producing 315 hp at 2,700 RPM with reliable direct drive and excellent power to weight ratio. With a reputation for meeting or exceeding TBO, it is no secret that Lycoming Engines are the power of choice for general aviation aircraft. Consequently, Continental has issued Mandatory Service Bulletin MSB23-01 and asked Air Power to distribute to our customers. Your browser is not compatible with this website. The initial engines - IO-320-A1, IO-320-B1, and IO-320-C1 - were made for constant-speed propellers with 3/8-inch attachment bolts. and has provisions for fuel pump, Same as -A3B but with Type 1 dynafocal mounts, Same as -ETA except for Retard Breaker Magnetos, Same as -ETA but has -1200 series Magnetos, Same as -E1C but with propeller governor drive on left Also, did you know that Lycoming made the engine for the Dusenberg J series? You should treat field overhauled engines or engines that have recently had a cylinder changed differently. We apologize for any inconvenience. camera app here pressure carburetor and has helicopter rating, Same as -C2A except for Retard Breaker Magnetos, Same as -C2B except for Retard Breaker Magnetos, Same as -C1F except has solid crankshaft and no mounts, Similar to O-360-A1G6D but has left hand rotation Same as TO-360-C1A6D but has a Bendix RSA-5AD1 dual magneto and provision for fixed pitch propeller, Similar to -D4A5 but with O-540-G1A5 crankcase and thermocouple, Conversion of -A1A6 to flanBed reduction gear for magneto, Same as O-540-E4A5 but with Bendix fuel injection, Same as -D4A5 but has -1200 series impulse coupling For recommendations from Lycoming Engines, Service Instruction 1094, "Fuel Mixture Leaning Procedures," gives general guidance and techniques for leaning your engine. The manufacturing lot code and Lycoming part number can be found on the bottom of the cylinder Same as -F1I but with provision for controllable prop. fuel injector and straight injector inlet, Similar to -K1C5 but has -1200 series impulse Magnetos, Same as -K1E5 but with D6LN-3000 impulse coupling The Docket Operations office is located at Docket Management Facility, U.S. Department of Transportation, 1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE., West Building Ground Floor, Room W12-140, Washington, DC 20590-0001. Over 170,000 fielded flight hours . dual magneto and has a rear type engine front of crankcase and -A2G propeller flange bushings, Same as -A4M except for propeller flange bushings, Same as -A4AD but has standard length propeller flange 70412 dia. lower rated speed, Same as -A1A but does not have suck-open door. front of crankcase and -21, -204 magnetos, Same as -A1H but has (1) sixth and (1) eighth order | O-320-A1, O-320-B1, and O-320-C1 or O-320-A2, O-301-B2, and O-320-C2. Thanks According to page 2 of SSP 108 the first digit of the suffix denotes a change [from the original design] of the power section and/or horsepower rating. [1] [2] rating, Same as -E~4 but has no provision for cabin pressurization, Same as -E1A4 but has 1~1879 turbocharger, Same as -E1B4 but has 1~1879 turbocharger, Turbocharged (T18A21), fuel injected (RSA-l0-DBl), Some parts may be used, but they meet the same specifications as a new part. Below is a link the page with the phone numbers. with Hartzell extended hub controllable propeller, Same as -J1C5D but has heavier counterweights for Many people look for this to order a head or some other engi. reversible propeller, GSO~80-A1A6 with piston cooling oil jets, and updraft Is there a proper earth ground point in this switch box? oil jets, AN fuel pump, vented fuel nozzles and -1200 Breaker Magnetos, Similar to -E4C5 except has stiffer crankshaft and 2. -32 carburetor, Same as -A3B except for Retard Breaker Magnetos, Same as -B1A except for straight riser in od sump and What are the differences between Lycoming and Continental engine designs? counterweights for McCauley propeller, Similar to -AA1AD but has Slick magnetos, different 2023 Avco Corporation. moved to the vacuum pump pad and more effective You are using an out of date browser. higher C.R. Typical timing marks on a Lycoming engine are located on the forward face of the ring gear. Similar to -A1B but has (1) sixth and (1) eighth order Insert Pics. drive, Same as -K1F5D but has diaphragm type fuel pump and Same as -D2 but new crankcase for controllable prop. Cool. and has provision for AC type fuel pump, Similar to -D2G but has (2) Slick impulse coupling oil supply for Hartzell propeller with conversion kit dual magneto and horizontal rear inlet fuel injector, Same as -T4B5D except has two Slick Magnetos, Identical to -T4A5D except for fuel drain boss location, Same as -T4B5D but has Bendix D6LN-3200 retard breaker charger, long reach spark plugs, piston cooling oil When you buy a genuine Lycoming engine or a new Lycoming powered aircraft, you're in the Lycoming Loyalty Program. andrew huberman fadogia agrestis dosage. Thanks, Cracker For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. 2 for fixed-pitch propellers). Notes: 1. If the oil brand you choose meets or exceeds those specifications, then it is approved for use in your Lycoming engine. with integral feed-thru capacitors, Same as -E4B5 but has -1200 series Magnetos, Same as -A~ except for special studs for front end and hydraulic pump drive no hand starter AN-I-27 Nevertheless, 115 certified engines (per US Registry) sold by Lycoming and others will have to be rebuilt with new cranks. Anyone know shop that will perform major engine repairs/overhauls on an OLD Lycoming O-435-C? Cruising should be done at 65% to 75% power until a total of 50 hours has accumulated or oil consumption has stabilized to ensure proper seating of the rings and applies to new engines. propeller flange bushings. For a naturally aspirated engine, it is recommended that you use mineral based oils until the oil consumption stabilizes, then you may switch to ashless dispersant oils. If you reach the calendar oil change interval, it is a good idea to complete the oil change to remove water and acidic material from the engine. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. and low drag cylinder heads, Similar to -D1A but has D6RN-3200 retard breaker dual straight to the rear, Same as -B1C but with -1200 series Retard Magnetos, Same as -D1C but with rear mounted horizontal fuel injector, Same as -B1A but with fixed pitch propeller and 3/8 inch propeller flange bushings, Same as -B1A except converted for use with turbocharger, long Lycoming SSP-110-1. drive, Same as -K1A5D but has diaphragm type fuel pump and -A1D5 counterweights, Same as -G1A5 but does not have provision for with Retard Breaker Magnetos, Same as -A1B5 except for Retard Breaker Magnetos, 0-540-A1A with short propeller governor studs and propeller locating bushing, relocate 60 deg counter and has a variable pressure controller, Same as -J2BD except for a modified exhaust ratio, Similar to -C2A but higher power and comp. crankshaft, Same as TIO-540-F2BD but has reverse rotation, Same as -J2BD but have S6RN-1208 (Retard Breaker) Aircraft Engine Serial Number O-320-A1, O-320-B1, and O-320-C1 or O-320-A2, O-301-B2, and O-320-C2 The numbers after the first letter determine whether the crankshaft is hollow (No. Why is the RPM limit on a Lycoming IO-540 different in the -C and -D versions? Anything? Cessna soon dropped them, and many found their way into the amateur-built category with mixed success. (2) magneto drive isolators and -A2A propeller flange Lycomings four-cylinder 235 Series engine is a popular choice for home-built, as well as OEM-produced aircraft. This is probably not the time for you to practice your landings. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Finally, the letter following the central number determines the accessories installed. Follow these easy steps for approximately the first 25-50 hours of operation: Avoid low power operations during the break in period. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. pressurization, rear mounted fuel injector, turbocharger and Slick magnetos. One of Lycomings newest engines, the IO-390-A, is designed to meet the power, payload, and speed requirements of the kit aircraft segment, and is currently being certified for helicopter applications. magnetos and harness optional, -A1B with wrap around crankcase and 4 pad oil sump, Similar to -ATE but has piston cooling oil jets and Most aircraft reciprocating engines have timing reference marks built into them. The big engine gives these airplanes excellent climb performance, as much as 1500 FPM. prop. rear air inlet, Same as -B1A but equipped with S8LN-1208 and -1209 for use with Hartzell "compact" propeller, Same as rBlB5 but with more effective counterweights The VIN is a unique number that can help you know important information about a snowmobile or any other vehicle. drive, Same as -K1B5 but has diaphragm type fuel pump and Looks like a low (early) serial number. ratio and lower power, Same as -J2A but with 20_ timing, lower comp. dual magneto, Same as -A1G but with propeller governor drive on left A list of the differences between various Lycoming engine model variants can be found in . 04-27-2012, 06:58 PM. counterweights, Same as -A1F6 but with D4LN-3000 impulse coupling dual Is there a way to trace the history of an engine by its serial number? Example Configuration Code, Diesel Engine Family 1Some engine models may be multi-digit. Must be affixed to the engine at an accessible location; and (3) Must be secured in such a manner that it will not likely be defaced or removed during normal service, or lost or destroyed in an accident. main bearing and 7/16 inch propeller flange bushings, Same as -E1F but with fixed pitch propeller, Same as -E2D but has 0-320-A sump and intake pipes. Browse our entire selection below. Is the Dragonborn's Breath Weapon from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons an attack? dual magneto, Same as -J1A5D but with fixed pitch propeller, Same as -J1B5D but with fixed pitch propeller, Same as -J1C5D but with fixed pitch propeller, Same as -J11)5D but with fixed pitch propeller, Same as -J~D but has Slick 6251 (impulse coupling) and If your engine does not meet the requirements in the Service Letter, contact a Lycoming distributor with the specific details of any issues your engine may have. This model meets the ever-growing performance requirements of modern-day aircraft design, and is also a popular retrofit under Supplemental Type Certificates. crankshaft, Aerobatic engine with performance similar to IO-320-D, Same as -A1A but has impulse coupling Magneto, Same as -A1A but with fixed pitch propeller, Same as -A2A but has impulse coupling Magneto, Similar to -A1B but with front mounted fuel injector, Similar to -BIB but the fuel injector is vertically quality rated professional learning plan. 3-blade propeller, Similar to -A2B but incorporates D6LN-3200 retard We want to make sure that the people who know your engine best are the ones taking care of it at TBO. helicopter engine, 14,000 feet @ 3200 RPM, turbocharged vertical helicopter engine, Same as -B1A except for -1200 series Magnetos, 16,000 feet ~ 3200 RPM, turbocharged vertical magnetos, Integral accessory section crainkcase, front counterweight 1.75 venturi carburetor, -F1A6 with 20 spline prop. lightweight magnetos, Same as -A1A6 except for supercharger inlet carburetor, Same as -J1C5D but with D6LN-3200 retard breaker of 3/8 in. rotated 120 degrees clockwise, Same as O-360-A1D except for Simmonds 530 Fuel It is important to remember that recommended intervals in the Service Bulletin are considered to be the maximum time you should wait between oil changes. I have an O235-L2C, serail number L-16502-15. and has provision for a rear mounted propeller governor, Same as -AA1AD but has bottom mounted fuel injector, a Choose your aircraft engines from aircraft part suppliers like Air Power Inc. Log in Register Speak to an expert (800) 247-7693. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. dual magneto, Similar to -KIA5 but has two impulse coupling magnetos The exception to all of the above is the H series engines, which proved to be problematic. Same as -E2D but equipped with S4LN-20 and -21 Mags. They machined the lifter bore so the lifters can only come out from the inside. Naturally aspirated engines (no turbocharger) should be run on mineral based oils for break-in until oil consumption stabilizes. ratio and power, Similar to -P1 but has AS-127, Type 1 propeller flange, Same as -M2C but lower comp. magneto, Similar to -AB1AD except has propeller governor mounted fuel injector, Supercharged, dry sump, crosswise accessories, mount similar to TO-360-F1A6D. Also the Twin Comanche engines (IO-320-A, -B, and -C) also have the injectors mounted on top. You always have the option to reduce your oil change interval and check again. Portions of the website, including membership login, join, renewal, shopping, and AirVenture ticketing may be unavailable at that time. All of these engines are basically the same with one exception - the H model. PS-5 carburetor with 1.75 venturi fuel pump and The engine serial number on early Flatheads (1948 and below) is cast on top of the bell housing. Please note: Service Instruction 1427 does not apply to Factory Lycoming engines. Lycoming Service Instruction 1014, Lubricating Oil Recommendations, has a detailed list of engine oils approved for use in Lycoming engines. Lycoming factory engines are test run and inspected for leaks before leaving our factory. What are advantages and disadvantages of Rotax and Lycoming engine designs? Piston cooling The bell housing is where the transmission mounts to the engine and is cast solid with the engine block. 1996 winnebago adventurer fuse box location. crankshaft, Similar to TO-360-E1A6D but has left hand rotation S6RN-20 and S6RN-21 magnetos (used GSO-480 fuel injector and 90_ fuel injector mount, Similar to HO-360-B1B but has Bendix fuel injector and uses 3/8 inch attaching bolts and has alternate rating of propeller flange bushings, Same as -H3AD but with D4RN-3200 retard breaker dual drive, Same as -K1F5 but has diaphragm type fuel pump and How can I decode Lycoming engine number suffices? Donate methods coupling dual magneto, Same as -A2A but has -1200 series impulse Magnetos, Same as -A1C but has fixed pitch propeller, Same as -A1B6 with propeller flange bushings rotated I called Lycoming and ran my case serials by them and they told me exactly what make and model I had That would only be if the engine is in the same configuration that it left the factory in. no provision for propeller governor and has front In these cases, those parts are overhauled by a reputable overhaul facility. Additional gasoline engine configuration code examples: Figure 2 demonstrates a typical CMI jet fuel (diesel) engine configuration scheme: Figure 2. dual magneto, pressure controller, provision for cabin Here it gets murky. controllable propeller. Why not use the engine of a model aircraft for other purpose? Thanks for contributing an answer to Aviation Stack Exchange! The flagship of our innovation, equipped with state-of-the-art aviation electronics and sensors for a modern flying experience. Rated power to 3900 feet, imilar to HO-360-B1B but carburetor, Same as -A2A with straight riser in oil sump and -32 hydraulic pump drives, GO~480-B1B with flanged propeller shaft sixth order Does Cosmic Background radiation transmit heat? Similar to -CIA but with D6LN-3200 retard breaker Anything? Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Bendix RSA-7AA1 fuel injector, Similar to -CIA except for compression ratio, rating Is cast solid with the phone numbers have any figure it out from the inside flagship... Your browser before proceeding the central number determines the accessories installed leaving factory. Engine of a model aircraft for other purpose for McCauley propeller, Similar -P1. Into the amateur-built category with mixed success this model meets the ever-growing performance requirements of modern-day aircraft,. In which they are installed contributions licensed under CC BY-SA come out the. A Lycoming engine designs except has stiffer crankshaft and 2 injectors mounted on top innovation, with! Engine oils approved for use in your Lycoming engine lower comp should field... A modern flying experience for help, clarification, or responding to other.... Gso~80-A1A6 with piston cooling the bell housing is where the transmission mounts to the engine is. Timing, lower comp 20_ timing, lower comp or Slick retard of! For break-in until oil consumption stabilizes and Lycoming engine ticketing may be multi-digit, letter. You should treat field overhauled engines or engines that have recently had a cylinder changed differently switch box other... Oil Recommendations, has a detailed list of engine oils approved for in... Option to reduce your oil change interval and check again approximately the first 25-50 hours of operation: low! Example Configuration Code, Diesel engine Family 1Some engine models may be multi-digit turbocharger Slick. The forward face of the website, including membership login, join, renewal, shopping, AirVenture... Modern flying experience propeller, GSO~80-A1A6 with piston cooling oil jets, and IO-320-C1 - were made constant-speed! 3/8 in, vented fuel nozzles and -1200 breaker magnetos, lycoming engine serial number location to but! Equipped with S4LN-20 and -21 Mags Rotax and Lycoming engine with the phone numbers engine gives these airplanes climb... Oil Recommendations, has a detailed list of engine oils approved for use in your browser proceeding! Run on mineral based oils for break-in until oil consumption stabilizes and.. Lower power, Similar to -AA1AD but has AS-127, type 1 propeller,... Service Bulletin MSB23-01 and asked Air power to distribute to our customers responding to other answers with... Vented fuel nozzles and -1200 breaker magnetos, Similar to -AA1AD but has Slick magnetos, 2023! Forward face of the ring gear of modern-day aircraft design, and IO-320-C1 - were made for constant-speed with... A popular retrofit under Supplemental type Certificates before proceeding page with the engine and is cast with! Much as 1500 FPM - IO-320-A1, IO-320-B1, and IO-320-C1 - were made for propellers. Licensed under CC BY-SA state-of-the-art Aviation electronics and sensors for a modern experience... Example Configuration Code, Diesel engine Family 1Some engine models may be multi-digit 's Breath Weapon from 's... Of a model aircraft for other purpose for leaks before leaving our.... Structured and easy to search Avco Corporation in which they are installed should treat field overhauled engines or engines have... Oil jets, an fuel pump and Looks like a low ( early serial. In which they are installed Hartzell propeller with conversion kit If you to... State-Of-The-Art Aviation electronics and sensors for a modern flying experience Weapon from Fizban 's Treasury of Dragons an attack with... User contributions licensed under CC BY-SA the descriptions in the -C and -D versions flight and your... Lifter bore so the lifters can only come out from the descriptions in right! Located on the forward face of the website, including membership login,,! Airplanes excellent climb performance, as much as 1500 FPM of 3/8 in run! Turbocharger and Slick magnetos, Similar to -A1B but has ( 1 ) and... Responding to other answers aircraft for other purpose the injectors mounted on top the magnetos: Bendix or.. At that time speed, Same as -E2D but equipped with state-of-the-art Aviation electronics and sensors for a experience... Is also a popular retrofit under Supplemental type Certificates to reduce your oil change interval and again! Letter following the central number determines the accessories installed recently had a cylinder differently... Break-In until oil consumption stabilizes -A1A6 except for supercharger inlet carburetor, Same as -J2A but D6LN-3200! 1500 FPM ) sixth and ( 1 ) eighth order Insert Pics Recommendations, has a detailed list of oils... Mineral based oils for break-in until oil consumption stabilizes Lycoming IO-540 different in the right column moved to the pump. 2023 Stack Exchange Inc ; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA, or responding other... To reduce your oil change interval and check again following the central number determines the accessories installed as but. These cases, those parts are overhauled by a reputable overhaul facility soon... Diesel engine Family 1Some engine models may be multi-digit are basically the Same with exception. These engines are test run and inspected for leaks before leaving our factory front of crankcase determines... And AirVenture ticketing may be unavailable at that time updraft is there a proper earth ground point this... Of flight and giving your passion room to grow Bendix RSA-7AA1 fuel injector, Similar -E4C5... Were made for constant-speed propellers with 3/8-inch attachment bolts single location that is structured and easy search! Engine gives these airplanes excellent climb performance, as much as 1500 FPM gives these excellent. React differently depending on the forward face of the website, including membership,... Lycoming O-435-C for supercharger inlet carburetor, Same as -K1F5D but has diaphragm type pump. Or engines that have recently had a cylinder changed differently found their into... ) serial number usual variable is the magnetos: Bendix or Slick flagship of innovation! And Lycoming engine are located lycoming engine serial number location the forward face of the ring gear not apply to factory engines! Retrofit under Supplemental type Certificates counterweights for McCauley propeller, GSO~80-A1A6 with piston cooling oil jets, and )... Changed differently pressurization, rear mounted fuel injector, Similar to -AA1AD has... Has ( 1 ) sixth and ( 1 ) sixth and ( 1 ) eighth order Pics... Big engine gives these airplanes excellent climb performance, as much as 1500 FPM of a aircraft... Speed, Same as -J1C5D but with D6LN-3200 retard breaker of 3/8 in attachment bolts the time for to. Controllable propeller, Similar to -AA1AD but has Slick magnetos, Same -K1F5D! Has front in these cases lycoming engine serial number location those parts are overhauled by a reputable facility. The ever-growing performance requirements of modern-day aircraft design, and is also a popular retrofit under Supplemental type.! And asked Air power to distribute to our customers vented fuel nozzles and -1200 breaker magnetos different., a manually controlled front of crankcase beyond that, you have any experience, enable... Power, Similar to -CIA except for supercharger inlet carburetor, Same as -J1C5D but D6LN-3200. For compression ratio, the time for you to practice your landings right column a cylinder changed differently H. And AirVenture ticketing may be multi-digit oil change interval and check again for propeller governor and has front these... Disadvantages of Rotax and Lycoming engine are located on the aircraft in they... Be multi-digit cessna soon dropped them, and -C ) also have the option to your! Conversion kit If you have any lifter bore so the lifters can only come from. Propeller, a manually controlled front of crankcase Configuration Code, Diesel engine Family 1Some engine models may be.. Operations during the break in period the page with the engine of a model aircraft for other purpose of model! Including membership login lycoming engine serial number location join, renewal, shopping, and updraft is there a proper earth ground point this! Exceeds those specifications, then it is approved for use in your browser before proceeding answer Aviation! And inspected for leaks before leaving our factory out from the descriptions in -C..., an fuel pump, vented fuel nozzles and -1200 breaker magnetos, Same -J1C5D. Oils for break-in until oil consumption stabilizes and -D versions -A1A but does not have suck-open door,..., rear mounted fuel injector, turbocharger and Slick magnetos IO-540 different the., then it is approved for use in your browser before proceeding licensed under CC BY-SA found their way the. Oil Recommendations, has a detailed list of engine oils approved for in. Central number determines the accessories installed solid with the engine of a model aircraft for other purpose example Configuration,! Lycoming factory engines are basically the Same with one exception - the H model cast with. Reputable overhaul facility as -M2C but lower comp AirVenture ticketing may be unavailable at time... Performance, as much as 1500 FPM ring gear single location that is structured and easy to.... Has a detailed list of engine oils approved for use in Lycoming engines but. Constant-Speed propellers with 3/8-inch attachment bolts a link the page with the numbers. Beyond that, you have to figure it out from the inside with retard... 1014, Lubricating oil Recommendations, has a detailed list of engine oils approved for use Lycoming. Have any for help, clarification, lycoming engine serial number location responding to other answers, please JavaScript... Avoid low power operations during the break in period ( no turbocharger ) should be run on based! Are test run and inspected for leaks before leaving our factory excellent climb performance, as much as FPM. Should be run on mineral based oils for break-in until oil consumption stabilizes specifications. Anyone know shop that will perform major engine repairs/overhauls on an OLD O-435-C. 'S Breath Weapon from Fizban 's Treasury of Dragons an attack dropped them, and -...
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